Hva’ sagde de?

Sidste onsdag begynder vi at se et lille antal af migranter bevæge sig i vandet rundt om hegnet ind til Ceuta.Last Wednesday, we began to see a small number of migrants moving through the water around the fence leading into Ceuta. Men lige pludselig så vokser det så større og større, så vi lige pludselig ser altså hobetal, ti tusinder af migranter bevæge sig både i vandet og prøver at krænge sig rundt om hegnet, der går ud i vandet.But all of a sudden, it grew larger and larger, until we suddenly saw tens of thousands of migrants moving both through the water and trying to squeeze around the fence that extends into the water. Vi ser folk i baderinge, vi ser folk i redningsveste, vi ser endda også folk i små gummibåde.We saw people in inflatable rings, people in life jackets, and even people in small rubber boats. Jeg ser billeder af en ung teenager, der har fire baderinge på sig, en om livet, to ved højre hånd, en ved venstre hånd.I saw pictures of a young teenager wearing four inflatable rings: one around his waist, two on his right hand, and one on his left hand. Og bag ved den her teenagerdreng, der ligger i gummiringene, kan man se, at der simpelthen bliver kørt borgervæk med ligposer på.And behind this teenage boy, lying in the inflatable rings, you can see that bodies are simply being driven away in body bags. Vi kan se, at der er kvinder, der er børn, men langt de fleste, det er unge marokkanske mænd, der simpelthen jubler, når de kommer forbi de spanske grænsevagter.We can see that there are women and children, but by far the majority are young Moroccan men who simply cheer when they get past the Spanish border guards. Lige pludselig er alles øjne i Europa rettet mod Ceuta, og alle spørger: Hvad er det, der sker her?Suddenly, everyone’s eyes in Europe are focused on Ceuta, and everyone is asking: What is happening here? Ceuta, den spanske enklave i Marokko, er den seneste uge blevet et mikrokosmos for hele Europas udlændingedebat.Ceuta, the Spanish enclave in Morocco, has become a microcosm of Europe’s entire immigration debate over the past week. Omkring 60.000 migranter svømmede tidligere på ugen fra Marokko til Ceuta.Around 60,000 migrants swam from Morocco to Ceuta earlier this week. Først frygter man en ny flygtninge- og migrantkrise som i 2015, og Spanien får skylden.At first, people feared a new refugee and migrant crisis like the one in 2015, and Spain was blamed. Meloni mener, at Spanien ikke gør nok for at beskytte EU's ydre grænser, det skriver hun på X.Meloni believes that Spain is not doing enough to protect the EU’s external borders, she wrote on X. Derefter bliver Marokko anklaget for at bruge deres egne borgere som et politisk våben.Then Morocco was accused of using its own citizens as a political weapon. Og selvom størstedelen af migranterne nu har indset, at de satte livet på spil for ingenting og er tilbage i Marokko, så fortsætter den store diskussion: Hvorfor og hvordan kunne så mange mennesker krydse grænsen til Spanien på så kort tid?And although most of the migrants have now realized that they risked their lives for nothing and have returned to Morocco, the major debate continues: Why and how could so many people cross the border into Spain in such a short time? It's a bad life in Morocco.It’s a bad life in Morocco. That's why we get swimming to here.That’s why we come swimming here. Og det handler genstart om i dag.And that’s what Restart is about today. Jeg hedder Simon Stefanski.My name is Simon Stefanski. Velkommen tilbage, Victor.Welcome back, Victor. Tak.Thank you. Og velkommen i studiet.And welcome to the studio. Mange tak.Thank you very much. Du er nærmest lige landet fra exclaveen, hvordan skal man sige det, Ceuta?You’ve practically just landed from the exclave—how should one put it—Ceuta? Ceuta.Ceuta. Altså, jeg har slåsset lidt med det, blandt andet har min far ringet, fordi han tidligere har været der selv som sømand og sagt, det hedder Ceuta.I’ve struggled a little with it. My father even called me, because he was there himself as a sailor years ago, and said it’s pronounced Ceuta. Men de lokalt dernede siger Ceuta.But the locals down there say Ceuta. Ceuta.Ceuta. Okay, men det siger vi.Okay, but that’s what we’ll say. Ja.Yes. Jeg var selv i Melilla, da noget lignende skete, den anden spanske exclave i Marokko, for en del år siden.I was in Melilla myself when something similar happened, in the other Spanish exclave in Morocco, quite a few years ago. Det er jo det der er så syret, det der med, at man står i Marokko.That’s what’s so surreal about it—the fact that you’re standing in Morocco. Der er ikke et eneste værtshus, hvor man kan købe bajer, og så går man igennem de der tre høje pigtrådshegn, og så pludselig så flyder det med vin og pølser, ikke?There isn’t a single pub where you can buy a beer, and then you walk through those three tall barbed-wire fences, and suddenly there’s wine and sausages everywhere, right? Jo.Exactly. Det er på den måde skørt sted, at man befinder sig i Spanien.It’s a strange place to find yourself in Spain. Man er altså i toppen af Afrika, i spidsen af Afrika.You’re at the top of Africa, at the tip of Africa. Unfolding disaster in a tiny Spanish territory.Unfolding disaster in a tiny Spanish territory. 60,000 people pour across the border from Morocco into Ceuta.60,000 people pour across the border from Morocco into Ceuta. Victor, det der har været særligt også ved den her historie, det er, at den har altså taget nogle drejninger i løbet af den uge, ikke?Victor, one thing that has been particularly notable about this story is that it has taken several turns over the course of the week, hasn’t it? Det må man sige.That’s certainly true. Altså, jeg har også til tider været lidt forvirret, for at være ærlig.I’ve also been a little confused at times, to be honest. Altså, de allerførste overskrifter, hvad er det for nogle, når man ser de her billeder af de mange tusind mennesker, der har svømmet ind i Ceuta?What were the very first headlines, when you saw these images of the many thousands of people who had swum into Ceuta? Jamen, vi får jo nogle ret bombastiske overskrifter, altså at Ceuta, Spanien, Europa bliver overrendt af migranter, de stormer hegnet.Well, we got some pretty bombastic headlines—that Ceuta, Spain, and Europe were being overrun by migrants, that they were storming the fence. Lige nu bliver der trukket paralleller til 2015, hvor vi jo så op mod en million flygtninge og migranter gå op langs Europas motorveje, også i Danmark, E45, vi kan huske det sikkert alle sammen.Very quickly, parallels were drawn with 2015, when we saw up to a million refugees and migrants moving along Europe’s motorways, including Denmark’s E45. We can probably all remember it. Men allerede ret hurtigt efter, så finder vi ud af, at historien er en anden.But fairly soon afterward, we realized that the story was different. Victor Skrød Fris er min kollega her i DR.Victor Skrød Fris is my colleague here at DR. Han er udlandsjournalist, og så er han netop vendt hjem fra den spanske eksklave Ceuta.He is a foreign-affairs journalist and has just returned from the Spanish exclave of Ceuta. Jamen det er jo et stykke land, der ligger på den afrikanske kyst og som grænser op mod Marokko.Well, it’s a piece of land on the African coast, bordering Morocco. De har deres eget styre, men hører ind under Spanien.It has its own administration but belongs to Spain. Så det er i princippet et stykke EU, der ligger der i Marokko.So in principle, it’s a piece of the EU located there in Morocco. You're local here?You’re local here? Yes.Yes. I Ceuta, der har han mødt og talt med både de bekymrede lokale...In Ceuta, he met and spoke with both concerned locals... And what has happened the last couple of days?And what has happened over the last couple of days? I don't know.I don’t know. ...... med de nyankomne migranter...with newly arrived migrants... Are you from Morocco?Are you from Morocco? Okay.Okay. Where in Morocco?Where in Morocco? ...... og så har han oplevet, hvordan det egentlig ser ud, når omkring 60.000 marokkanere pludselig ankommer til et område, der kun er lidt større end Færøerne og normalt kun har 80.000 indbyggere.and he experienced what it actually looks like when around 60,000 Moroccans suddenly arrive in an area only slightly larger than the Faroe Islands and normally home to just 80,000 inhabitants. How did you experience it?How did you experience it? How did it feel?How did it feel? Afraid.Afraid. Allerede da vi stiger af færgen, kommer ud på gaden, der kan vi se, altså der kører sådan nogle store militærhummers rundt med store maskingeværer på toppen.As soon as we get off the ferry and go out onto the street, we can see these large military Humvees driving around with heavy machine guns mounted on top. Der er politi rundt, man kan hele tiden se de blå blink.There is police everywhere, and you can constantly see the blue flashing lights. Og så ser man så migranter i mindre og større grupper gå rundt i gadebilledet.And then you see migrants walking around the streets in smaller and larger groups. Og man kan mærke, at der er en urolig stemning.You can sense that the atmosphere is uneasy. Og bare det, at nærmest befolkningstallet bliver fordoblet på 24 timer, er jo, altså det kan man godt selv sætte sig ind i.And the fact that the population has practically doubled within 24 hours is something anyone can understand the implications of. I'm from Morocco.I’m from Morocco. Okay.Okay. And what's your name?And what’s your name? My name is Sohaib.My name is Sohaib. Sohaib.Sohaib. How do you spell that?How do you spell that? I have 17 years old.I have 17 years old. Du kommer jo også hurtigt i tale med nogle af de mennesker, som er svømmet ind i Ceuta.You also quickly get talking to some of the people who swam into Ceuta. Hvem er den første, du taler med?Who is the first person you speak to? Jamen sammen med fotografen Umid, så finder vi altså nærmest lige ude foran vores hotel, Sohaib, som er en 17-årig marokkaner, der ligger på et fortov og forsøger at sove.Well, together with the photographer Umid, we find Sohaib almost right outside our hotel—a 17-year-old Moroccan who is lying on a pavement trying to sleep. You came today at five o'clock?You arrived today at five o’clock? Yes, in 5 p.m.Yes, at 5 p.m. Did you go on water?Did you go into the water? Yes, in water.Yes, into the water. In swimming.Swimming. Swimming in water, I think three hours.Swimming in the water, I think for three hours. Three hours.Three hours. Han er taget alene afsted, 17 årig, og som så mange andre har han drømmen om et bedre liv i Marokko, og han siger, der er ingenting for ham der.He set off alone, aged 17, and like so many others, he dreams of a better life away from Morocco. He says there is nothing for him there. Why did you come today?Why did you come today? Today because my friends tell me...Today because my friends told me... Your friends told you to go?Your friends told you to go? Yes.Yes. Yes, my friends in Casablanca.Yes, my friends in Casablanca. Så er han sulten, han er tørstig, han har kun lige en kvart flaske vand.He is hungry and thirsty, with only a quarter of a bottle of water left. Hans plan er, at han vil søge asyl og få et eller andet måde opholdstilladelse og komme videre ind i EU.His plan is to apply for asylum, obtain some kind of residence permit, and continue farther into the EU. Det er drømmen.That is the dream. Men hvad havde han regnet med?But what had he expected? Nu ligger han på et fortov og er tørstig og sulten.Now he is lying on a pavement, thirsty and hungry. Hvad havde han regnet med, at der ville blive taget imod ham med åbne arme?Had he expected to be welcomed with open arms? Det, der hurtigt går op for mig, det er, at der ikke er nogen fra kronmedplanen for mange af dem, jeg tager dermed.What quickly becomes clear to me is that there is no one from the authorities for many of the people I speak to. Der er ikke meget andet end, de har fået at vide, at dørene er åbne til Spanien og til EU, så det er bare med at komme afsted.They have been told little more than that the doors to Spain and the EU are open, so they should simply set off. De er fulde med strømmen.They are going with the flow. Hvad fortæller 17-årige Souhaib om den tur, han har været ude på?What does 17-year-old Souhaib tell you about the journey he made? Jamen, det har været krævende.Well, it was demanding. For flere af dem her hører vi jo, at det har taget flere timer for dem.We hear that it took several hours for many of them. Det, man også kan se på billederne, er, at mange af dem er ikke dygtige svømmere.You can also see from the pictures that many of them are not strong swimmers. Og det ender jo også med at koste op til omkring 100 mennesker, man nu har talt op, der har mistet livet.And it has also ended up costing the lives of around 100 people, according to the current count. Og jeg tror ikke, de er færdige med at fiske folk op endnu.And I don’t think they have finished pulling people out of the water yet. Nej, det tror jeg heller ikke.No, I don’t think so either. Altså, det er jo med livet som indsats.They are literally risking their lives. Hvad er det, der får de her mennesker til at sætte livet på spil for at svømme ind i den her spanske enklave?What makes these people risk their lives to swim into this Spanish enclave? Det er drømmen om et bedre liv.It is the dream of a better life. Og det, jeg spørger flere af dem, jamen, er det værd at sætte dit liv på spil for det her?And when I ask several of them, is it worth risking your life for this? Og de siger, jamen, der er ikke noget liv i Marokko.They say, well, there is no life in Morocco. Vi kan ikke få noget arbejde.We can’t find work. Vi kan ikke få en tilværelse til at fungere.We can’t make a life for ourselves. Der er kun én vej, og det er at komme til Europa.There is only one way, and that is to get to Europe. Og det har man jo hørt før fra masser af unge mennesker, der har migreret igennem mange år mod Europa.And we have heard that before from plenty of young people who have migrated toward Europe over many years. Det, som er det store spørgsmål her, det er jo: Hvorfor lige nu?The big question here is: Why now? Hvorfor så mange lige præcis på det her tidspunkt?Why so many people at precisely this point in time? Får du en idé om det, da du taler med nogle af de her mennesker?Do you get an idea of why when you talk to some of these people? Der tegner sig et klart billede for dem, jeg taler med, at de har set noget på sociale medier, eller de har talt med deres venner, som har sagt: Nu er grænserne åbne til Spanien.A clear picture emerges from the people I speak to: they have seen something on social media, or spoken to friends who told them, “The borders to Spain are open now.” Det er nu, vi skal afsted.“Now is when we have to leave.” Hvad er det, de har set på sociale medier?What have they seen on social media? Der har været et hav af forskellige indlæg fra alle mulige Facebook-grupper, på TikTok, på Instagram.There have been countless posts in all kinds of Facebook groups, on TikTok, and on Instagram. Man kan se, der er nogen, der har lagt et kort op, at man skal tage til Fnideq, den sidste by inden Ceuta i Marokko, og der skal man svømme til.You can see that someone has posted a map saying that people should go to Fnideq, the last town in Morocco before Ceuta, and swim from there. Der er ligesom lavet kort til.Maps have essentially been made for them. Der har også været Facebook-grupper, det her Financial Times afdækkede, hvor der er blevet solgt våddragte, svømmefødder og så videre for at gøre turen nemmere.There have also been Facebook groups, uncovered by the Financial Times, where wetsuits, flippers, and so on were sold to make the journey easier. Og så har der simpelthen også været folk, der har sagt, nu er dørene åbne.And there were also simply people saying, “The doors are open now.” Så er der også nogen, der har set, at der er nogen, der er kommet igennem, altså dagene op til det her, det at kunne lade sig gøre.Some had also seen that others had made it through in the days leading up to this, showing that it was possible. Og det her mulighedsvindue, der bliver beskrevet på sociale medier, som så mange mennesker til at tage afsted, handler blandt andet om nogle af Spaniens nye love og en højesteretsdom.And this window of opportunity described on social media, which prompted so many people to leave, is partly connected to some of Spain’s new laws and a Supreme Court ruling. Ja, altså i juni, der er der en højesteretsdom, som siger, at man ikke bare kategorisk på samme måde, som man gør gennem fastlandet, så kan man ikke afvise migranter, der tager gennem søvejen.Yes. In June, there was a Supreme Court ruling saying that migrants arriving by sea cannot simply be rejected categorically in the same way as those arriving via the mainland. Derudover har den spanske regering også sagt, at man vil give over en halv million illegale migranter opholdstilladelse i første omgang et år.In addition, the Spanish government has said that it will initially grant residence permits for one year to more than half a million undocumented migrants. Det man skal forstå ved den beslutning er, at det hovedsageligt er folk fra Latinamerika og folk, der taler spansk, der har fået det her opholdstilladelse, og altså ikke marokkanere.It is important to understand that this decision mainly concerns people from Latin America and Spanish speakers who have received these residence permits—not Moroccans. Men det er de her to højesteretsbeslutninger og den her beslutning om at give illegale migranter opholdstilladelse, der på en eller anden måde er blevet vækstet til, at nu dørene er åbne til Spanien.But these two Supreme Court decisions and the decision to grant undocumented migrants residence permits have somehow been twisted into the idea that the doors to Spain are now open. Og også det, der får andre europæiske topledere til at slå meget hårdt ud efter Spanien.And that is also what has prompted other European leaders to react so strongly against Spain. Det må man sige.That’s certainly true. Den første europæiske leder, der reagerer, er Italiens premierminister Meloni, der sammen med den finske indenrigsminister vil smide Spanien ud af Schengen, altså ud af EU-samarbejdet om åbne grænser.The first European leader to react was Italy’s Prime Minister Meloni, who, together with Finland’s interior minister, wants to throw Spain out of Schengen—that is, out of the EU cooperation on open borders. Italy, which is threatening to suspend its free border movement between Spain and Italy.Italy, which is threatening to suspend its free border movement between Spain and Italy. Mette Frederiksen vil heller ikke udelukke den mulighed.Mette Frederiksen has also refused to rule out that possibility. Statsminister Mette Frederiksen kræver nu sammen med 20 andre europæiske stats- og regeringschefer handling.Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen is now demanding action together with 20 other European heads of state and government. Og det, der ligger under den trussel, det er selvfølgelig en anklage mod den spanske regering, at de er ansvarlige for, at det her kunne ske.Underlying that threat is, of course, an accusation against the Spanish government that it is responsible for allowing this to happen. I et fælles brev skriver de, at det er afgørende, at der er kontrol over EU's grænser.In a joint letter, they write that it is crucial to have control over the EU’s borders. Der må vi hellere lige slå fast, Victor, at den her eksklave, Ceuta, er det overhovedet en del af Schengen-samarbejdet?We should probably establish this right away, Victor: Is this enclave, Ceuta, actually part of the Schengen area? Nej, det er det ikke.No, it isn’t. Og det er det ikke, fordi de her to eksklaver, Melilla og Ceuta, ligger på det afrikanske kontinent, og man har godt kunne forudse, at der måske ville komme mange migranter over, hvis det var sådan, at de kunne rejse direkte videre til Spanien, hvis de fik adgang igennem grænsen.And it isn’t because these two exclaves, Melilla and Ceuta, lie on the African continent, and it could reasonably be anticipated that many migrants might cross over if they could travel directly onward to Spain after gaining entry across the border. Så hvad er meningen med, at Meloni og Frederiksen truer med at tage Spanien ud af Schengen-samarbejdet, hvis den her eksklave slet ikke er en del af Schengen-samarbejdet?So what is the point of Meloni and Frederiksen threatening to take Spain out of the Schengen area if this enclave is not part of Schengen at all? Jamen det, man jo frygter, det er jo, at der kommer folk over og så søger asyl, og så får opholdstilladelse og kan rejse videre ind i EU.Well, what people fear is that people will cross over, apply for asylum, obtain residence permits, and then travel onward into the EU. Men det er jo også, at Spanien skal til at få styr på den her situation.But it is also about Spain needing to get control of the situation. Og når du taler med nogle af de lokale i Ceuta, hvordan har de det så med, hvordan deres egen regering håndterer det, og hvordan har de det med truslerne fra jo blandt andet Meloni?And when you speak to some of the locals in Ceuta, how do they feel about the way their own government is handling it, and how do they feel about the threats from, among others, Meloni? Jeg taler blandt andet med Estefania Gonzalez, en ung studerende, der er meget oprørt over den her situation.I spoke, among others, with Estefania Gonzalez, a young student who is deeply upset about the situation. Hun siger, at for det første så skal den spanske regering gøre noget, men hun føler sig også lagt i stikken af de andre EU-ledere, fordi hun siger, det er os, der lever med konsekvenserne.She says that, first of all, the Spanish government needs to do something, but she also feels abandoned by the other EU leaders, because, as she puts it, we are the ones living with the consequences. Og så peger hun jo også på noget, som er, at dem, der har modtaget flest illegale migranter i 2025, jamen det er ikke Spanien, det er ikke Grækenland og det er Italien.She also points out that the country receiving the most undocumented migrants in 2025 is not Spain, Greece, or Italy. Så når Meloni, premierministeren i Italien, siger, at det er Spanien, der skal ekskluderes fra Schengen-samarbejdet, så synes hun, det er hyklerisk.So when Meloni, Italy’s prime minister, says that Spain should be excluded from the Schengen area, she thinks it is hypocritical. Thousands of immigrants come into Italy every day, and you say that 50,000 people coming here, it's a lot, that we have to go out of Schengen.Thousands of immigrants come into Italy every day, and you say that 50,000 people coming here is a lot, and that we should leave Schengen. I’m hypocrite.I’m a hypocrite. Så, vi har altså de her vanvittige billeder.So, we have these outrageous images. 10.000 vis af mennesker, som kommer ind i det her lille stykke.Tens of thousands of people entering this tiny area. Spanien, europæiske ledere, som er rasende, som er bange, som mener, at den spanske regerings udlændingepolitik er i gang med at skabe et nyt 2015.Spain and European leaders who are furious and frightened, believing that the Spanish government’s immigration policy is creating a new 2015. Men så kommer der på en måde en ny vinkel på historien, sådan som Daneskride frem.But then, in a way, a new angle on the story emerges, as Daneskride puts it. Pludselig så begynder man at tale om, hvorvidt det er Marokko, der i virkeligheden er i gang med at prøve at bruge den her menneskemængde som pression mod Spanien.Suddenly, people began discussing whether Morocco might actually be trying to use this crowd of people as leverage against Spain. Og er der nogen af de migranter, som du taler med, som kan bekræfte den her teori om, at Marokko i virkeligheden har en finger med i spillet?And are there any of the migrants you speak to who can confirm the theory that Morocco actually has a hand in this? Alle dem, jeg taler med, de siger, at de marokkanske grænsevagter, de prøvede at stoppe dem, men de sniger sig udenom og kommer videre.Everyone I speak to says that the Moroccan border guards tried to stop them, but they slipped past them and continued on. Men der er altså flere aviser, der har talt med migranter, som siger, at de blev hjulpet på vej af de marokkanske grænsevagter.However, several newspapers have spoken to migrants who say that the Moroccan border guards helped them on their way. Og mange af de spanske aviser konkluderede altså, at alene det, at så mange mennesker kan komme over på én gang, jamen det må simpelthen være fordi, at de marokkanske grænsevagter ikke havde gjort deres arbejde ordentligt.And many Spanish newspapers concluded that the mere fact that so many people could cross at once must mean that the Moroccan border guards had simply failed to do their job properly. Hvilken interesse skulle Marokko dog have i at hjælpe 10.000 vis af marokkanere ind i Ceuta?What interest could Morocco possibly have in helping tens of thousands of Moroccans into Ceuta? Jamen, de ved, at de kan bruge det som politisk pressionsmiddel.Well, they know they can use it as political leverage. Det har man set tidligere, blandt andet i 2021.We have seen that before, including in 2021. Omkring 8.000 migranter har de seneste dage krydset grænsen fra Marokko til den spanske enklave.Around 8,000 migrants have crossed the border from Morocco to the Spanish enclave in recent days. Det er sådan, det skal man lige forstå, at Marokko gør krav på Vestsahara, der ligger ved siden af.One thing to understand is that Morocco claims Western Sahara, which lies next door. Det er utroligt komplekst.It is incredibly complex. Her er der en selvstændighedsbevægelse, og lederen af den her selvstændighedsbevægelse, han fik corona tilbage i 2021.There is an independence movement there, and the leader of that independence movement contracted COVID back in 2021. Her vælger spanierne at hjælpe ham og flyve ham til Spanien for at behandle ham.The Spanish chose to help him and fly him to Spain for treatment. Og det gjorde simpelthen marokkanerne rasende.And that simply enraged the Moroccans. Og kort tid efter så så man op mod 10.000 migranter storme grænsen ved Ceuta.Shortly afterward, up to 10,000 migrants were seen storming the border at Ceuta. Men noget af det har at gøre med forholdet mellem Spanien og Marokko.But part of it has to do with the relationship between Spain and Morocco. Når det fungerer, så fungerer grænsen også.When that relationship works, the border works too. Hvad skulle være årsagen til den her gang, at Marokko har lyst til at lægge pres på Spanien?What would be the reason this time for Morocco wanting to put pressure on Spain? Jamen, de spanske medier og folk med indsigt i den her historie, de siger, at den spanske premierminister Sánchez har fornyligt været i Algeriet, og det har hans indenrigsminister også.Well, Spanish media and people with insight into the story say that Spanish Prime Minister Sánchez recently visited Algeria, as did his interior minister. Og årsagen til det er, at de gerne vil knytte tættere bånd til Algeriet, fordi de har naturgas, som Spanien har brug for.The reason is that they want to forge closer ties with Algeria because it has natural gas that Spain needs. Algeriet og Marokko har ikke et godt forhold.Algeria and Morocco do not have a good relationship. Så det, at premierminister Sánchez har været i Algeriet for at knytte tættere bånd med dem, skulle have gjort Marokko rasende igen, og derfor kunne det være et incitament til, at man ville hjælpe de her migranter til at komme til grænsen.So the fact that Prime Minister Sánchez visited Algeria to forge closer ties with it is believed to have enraged Morocco once again, and could therefore have been an incentive to help these migrants reach the border. Det man jo bare må sige, det er, at hvis Marokko ønsker at bruge migranter som pression, så ser det jo også ud til at virke.What one can say is that if Morocco wants to use migrants as leverage, it certainly appears to be working. Fordi det får jo hele Europa til at gå i panik, det her.Because this has sent all of Europe into a panic. De her spekulationer, de bliver jo til alle mulige forgreninger på højrefløjen og venstrefløjen om, hvem der måske i virkeligheden står bag.These speculations are branching out in all sorts of directions on both the right and the left about who might really be behind it. Der er Per Clausen fra Enhedslisten, som mener, at måske har Israel og USA i virkeligheden en stor interesse i at lægge pres på Spanien.There is Per Clausen from the Red-Green Alliance, who believes that Israel and the United States may in fact have a strong interest in putting pressure on Spain. Man taler også om Rusland.Russia is also being mentioned. Altså, spekulationerne løber løbsk nu, fordi det er noget, som virkelig går ind og skader og splitter Europa.The speculation is running wild now because this is something that is seriously damaging and dividing Europe. Hvad siger Marokko selv til anklagerne om, at de i virkeligheden har en finger med i spillet?What does Morocco itself say to the accusations that it actually has a hand in this? Deres indenrigsminister har været ude og afvise det her.Its interior minister has come out and denied it. De siger, at det er noget, der er sket på sociale medier.They say it is something that happened on social media. Det er menneskesmuglere, der har været med til at sætte det her i værk.Human traffickers were involved in setting this in motion. Det er ikke deres skyld.It is not their fault. Og de siger også, at Marokko er en troværdig samarbejdspartner, når det kommer til at holde grænsen lukket.They also say that Morocco is a reliable partner when it comes to keeping the border closed. Noget i øvrigt, som også bliver bekræftet af Spaniens regering og premierminister Sánchez, som også har været ude at sige, de stoler stadig på Marokko, men det er der jo ikke alle i Spanien, der gør.That is also confirmed by Spain’s government and Prime Minister Sánchez, who have said that they still trust Morocco—but not everyone in Spain does. Nej, og man kan jo sige, samarbejdet mellem Spanien og Marokko om at holde grænserne lukket er jo en meget, meget vigtig del af Spaniens grænsekontrol.No, and one might say that cooperation between Spain and Morocco to keep the borders closed is a very, very important part of Spain’s border control. Altså, de er jo også dybt afhængige af det her land.They are also deeply dependent on that country. De er nødt til at have et godt forhold til Marokko.They have to maintain good relations with Morocco. My name is Ahmed.My name is Ahmed. Ahmed.Ahmed. And last name?And your last name? Mahraoui.Mahraoui. Mahraoui.Mahraoui. From Morocco.From Morocco. Så får historien en form for nyt vendepunkt, for fra at vi har talt om de her 60.000 migranter på et spansk område, så ser vi jo lige pludselig, at rigtig mange af dem begynder at vende tilbage til Marokko.Then the story takes another kind of turn, because from talking about these 60,000 migrants in Spanish territory, we suddenly see that very many of them are beginning to return to Morocco. Hvordan foregår det?How does that happen? Vi taler med flere den første nat, som simpelthen er sultne, trætte.We speak to several of them on the first night, and they are simply hungry and tired. De kan ikke finde en ordentlig sted at sove, og de føler sig ikke godt behandlet i Ceuta.They cannot find a proper place to sleep, and they do not feel well treated in Ceuta. And you're going back?And you’re going back? Yeah, I'm going back.Yeah, I’m going back. It's very angry.I’m very angry. Jeg møder en mand i sluttyverne den første aften, jeg er der, og jeg kan se, han ligesom går den anden vej end de andre, og jeg spørger ham så: Hvad sker der?On my first evening there, I meet a man in his late twenties. I can see that he is walking in the opposite direction from the others, so I ask him: What’s happening? Jamen, han havde så simpelthen været der i nogle dage.Well, he had simply been there for several days. Han har ikke fået noget at spise.He had not been given anything to eat. Han har fået meget lidt vand.He had received very little water. Han har følt sig dårligt behandlet.He felt badly treated. Han havde troet, at der ville være, altså han blev modtaget mere med åbne arme.He had thought that he would be received, well, more with open arms. Det skete simpelthen ikke, og derfor så tænkte han: Jeg er nødt til at tage tilbage, fordi det her, det er heller ikke nogen fremtid for mig.That simply did not happen, and so he thought: I have to go back, because this is not a future for me either. Men det, som jeg hører fra mange af dem, jeg taler med, det er: Jamen, det kan godt være, at vi vender tilbage nu, men vi kommer altså tilbage igen.But what I hear from many of the people I speak to is: Well, we may be going back now, but we will come back again. De har ikke opgivet.They have not given up. Nej, mange af dem siger til mig: No Morocco, viva España.No, many of them say to me: No Morocco, viva España. Størstedelen vender ret hurtigt tilbage til Marokko, men der er også nogen, der bliver og prøver at se, om de kan gemme sig, måske få asyl en dag.Most return to Morocco fairly quickly, but some stay and try to hide, perhaps hoping to apply for asylum one day. Og en af dem er 17-årige Souhaib, som du talte om før, som du fandt sovende på fortovet.One of them is 17-year-old Souhaib, whom you mentioned earlier and found sleeping on the pavement. Hvorfor vil han prøve at blive, selvom han ligger der og nærmest ikke har noget sted at sove, nærmest ikke har noget vand tilbage? And I have the...Why will he try to stay, even though he is lying there with practically nowhere to sleep and hardly any water left? And I have the... Kom on, the... مشاكل, problemer i mit hus, and I don't have the money.Come on, the... problems, problems at home, and I don’t have the money. Livet hjemme i Marokko, han siger, der er ikke nogen fremtid.Life back home in Morocco—he says there is no future. Der er kun EU.There is only the EU. Der er ikke andre muligheder.There are no other options. Så derfor så er han villig til for det første jo at sætte sit eget liv på spil for at komme over, men han er også villig til at stå ret meget igennem for at få asyl.So first of all, he is willing to risk his own life to get across, but he is also willing to endure quite a lot to obtain asylum. Men når nu størstedelen af de her 60.000 mennesker er taget tilbage til Marokko, betyder det så også, at den politiske debat i Europa er forstummer?But now that most of these 60,000 people have returned to Morocco, does that also mean that the political debate in Europe has died down? Nej, det kan man ikke sige.No, you can’t say that. Tirsdag formiddag blev der afholdt krisemøde mellem EU's ministre.On Tuesday morning, the EU ministers held an emergency meeting. Her kommer det blandt andet frem, at EU har registreret flere tusind falske artikler og opslag på sociale medier fra russiske aktører om netop Ceuta.It emerged, among other things, that the EU had registered several thousand fake articles and social-media posts from Russian actors specifically about Ceuta. Minister Morten Bødskov siger, at det er et klart forsøg på at destabilisere Europa, lyder det.Minister Morten Bødskov says it is a clear attempt to destabilize Europe, or so it sounds. Og derudover så blev der udtrykt en fælles opbakning og ros til den spanske håndtering af situationen.In addition, there was a joint expression of support and praise for the Spanish handling of the situation. Faktisk så var der ros fra alle EU's ministre til den spanske regering for at handle hurtigt og stoppe strømmen brat, langt de fleste migranter er vendt retur til Marokko.In fact, all the EU ministers praised the Spanish government for acting quickly and abruptly stopping the flow; the vast majority of the migrants have returned to Morocco. Og så en enighed om en øget kontrol med EU's grænser.And there was agreement on increased control of the EU’s borders. Vi skal have mere fokus på den grænsekontrol, som landene i EU's nærområder, den skal gøres bedre.We need to focus more on border control in the EU’s neighboring regions; it needs to be improved. Man kan meget hurtigt mærke, at Ceuta er blevet en kampplads for hele Europas migrationspolitik.You can very quickly sense that Ceuta has become a battleground for all of Europe’s migration policy. Blandt andet er jeg til en demonstration søndag aften, hvor de lokale Ceutaer mødte op foran regeringsbygningen for at demonstrere mod Pedro Sánchez og hans måder, og regeringens måder at håndtere den her situation på.Among other things, I attended a demonstration on Sunday evening, where local residents of Ceuta gathered outside the government building to protest against Pedro Sánchez and his methods, and the government’s methods, for handling the situation. Den spanske premierminister.The Spanish prime minister. Ja, men også deres forhold til Marokko, at der skal gøres noget her, fordi de kan ikke blive ved med at have den her trussel liggende lige på den anden side af grænsen.Yes, but also their relationship with Morocco—that something must be done here, because they cannot continue to have this threat lying just across the border. Men til den her demonstration, der sker der noget.But something happened at this demonstration. Lige pludselig så bliver der foldet et kæmpestort banner ud, hvor der står, at Spanien fortjener remigration.Suddenly, a huge banner was unfurled reading: “Spain deserves remigration.” Og det står på engelsk, hvilket jeg studsede over.And it was written in English, which made me pause. Okay, so first of all, what is your name?Okay, so first of all, what is your name? Maximilian Merkel.Maximilian Merkel. Jeg finder så ud af, at det er en tysker, Maximilian Merkel, der er forbiperson for Generation Identitær i Tyskland, som er taget hele vejen fra Tyskland til Ceuta for at komme med det her budskab.I then discovered that it was a German, Maximilian Merkel, a representative of Generation Identity in Germany, who had traveled all the way from Germany to Ceuta to deliver this message. I'm here to protest for the Safe Europe Act.I’m here to protest for the Safe Europe Act. We want to show every European that there is a solution.We want to show every European that there is a solution. Han siger jo, at det her beviser, hvor skrøbelige EU's grænser er, og hvor meget Europa har brug for det her meget omdiskuterede begreb at remigrere folk i hele Europa.He says this proves how fragile the EU’s borders are, and how much Europe needs this highly controversial concept of remigrating people throughout Europe. Other people from the peninsula came here to divide the Ceuta citizens.Other people from the peninsula came here to divide the citizens of Ceuta. Og Estefania Gonzalez, der er en af de lokale fra Ceuta, der var mødt op til den her demonstration, jeg talte også om hende før, hun var vred over, at lige pludselig så skulle Ceuta bruges som politisk kampplads for alle i Europa, fordi hun siger, det her er vores problem, det er os, der lever med problemerne, det erAnd Estefania Gonzalez, one of the locals from Ceuta who attended the demonstration—I mentioned her earlier—was angry that Ceuta was suddenly being used as a political battleground for everyone in Europe, because she says: This is our problem. We are the ones living with the problems. It is ikke jer.not you. We are also here protesting about that, that we don't want a Ceuta divided.We are also here protesting that we do not want a divided Ceuta. Hvad gør Spanien og EU for, at det her ikke sker igen?What are Spain and the EU doing to prevent this from happening again? Altså den spanske indenrigsminister var tog ret hurtigt til Ceuta og forklarede, at situationen var under kontrol.The Spanish interior minister traveled to Ceuta fairly quickly and explained that the situation was under control. Det mener man selvfølgelig ikke i Ceuta, at den er overhovedet, men han var lynhurtigt ude og sige, det her skal vi nok få styr på, både tilnalt til de lokale, men selvfølgelig også til EU-lederne om, at Spanien har styr på situationen.Of course, people in Ceuta do not believe it is under control at all, but he was quick to say that they would get this under control, both to reassure the locals and, of course, to tell EU leaders that Spain had the situation under control. Helt konkret gør man det, at man sætter en 500 meter lang flydende barriere op ud.More concretely, they are putting up a 500-meter-long floating barrier. Lige der, hvor alle de her mange tusind migranter er svømmet forbi, simpelthen for at sige: Nu stopper vi det her.Right where all these thousands of migrants swam past, simply to say: Now we are stopping this. Victor, du er som sagt lige kommet hjem derfra og har været der i nogle hektiske døgn.Victor, as mentioned, you have just returned from there after spending several hectic days there. Hvad tager du selv med hjem fra den her spanske enklave?What are you taking home with you from this Spanish enclave? Jamen uanset hvad der er let op til det her, og hvem der måske har skylden, så må man bare sige, at når man tænker på alle dem, der er døde, alle dem, der er blevet hevet op af vandet, livløse med en drøm om et bedre liv, de møder, der står på Marokkos kyst og græder, fordi de ikkeWell, regardless of what led up to this and who may be to blame, one can only say that when you think of all those who died, all those pulled lifeless from the water with a dream of a better life, the mothers standing on Morocco’s coast crying because they cannot kan komme i kontakt med deres sønner, der er svømmet afsted, så må man bare sige, uanset hvad, så er det en kæmpe tragedie, det her.reach their sons who have swum away, you can only say that, whatever the circumstances, this is a huge tragedy. Og 17-årige Souhaib, som du talte med, som du mødte på et fortov, og som valgte at blive der nogle ekstra dage der i Ceuta, er han der stadigvæk?And 17-year-old Souhaib, whom you spoke to and met on a pavement, and who chose to stay there for a few extra days in Ceuta—is he still there? Nej, han er vendt hjem igen.No, he has returned home. Jeg fik en WhatsApp-besked fra ham, hvor han siger, at han skal aldrig nogensinde tilbage til Ceuta, og han skriver, at der var sult, der var tørst, folk døde rundt i gaderne.I received a WhatsApp message from him saying that he would never return to Ceuta, and he wrote that there was hunger, there was thirst, and people were dying in the streets around him. Ceuta vil ikke have os, og jeg kommer ikke til at komme tilbage igen.Ceuta does not want us, and I am not coming back again. Men udfordringen for ham er, som han også skriver, at jeg kan heller ikke blive i Marokko.But his challenge, as he also writes, is: I cannot stay in Morocco either. Slut på dagens program.That’s the end of today’s program. Satar med Christine Let Schjødtze, Signe Staggaard, Kry Bak Jensen, Søren Elbæk, Line Fabricius, og jeg hedder Simon Stefanski.Hosted by Christine Let Schjødtze, Signe Staggaard, Kry Bak Jensen, Søren Elbæk, Line Fabricius, and me, Simon Stefanski. Mens du holder sommerferie, fortsætter djævlen i detaljen med at gå helt tæt på forbrydelser fra før og nu.While you are on summer vacation, Djævlen i detaljen continues to take you right up close to crimes from the past and present. Hør for eksempel historien om den danske pirat Mads Stis.For example, hear the story of the Danish pirate Mads Stis. Drengbrunier klirer og tunge støvler hamrer mod trapperne.Brown boys shout and heavy boots pound against the stairs. Mads Stis står allerede klar i enden af piraternes hurtige, lette angrebsbåde.Mads Stis is already standing ready at the end of the pirates’ fast, light attack boats. Nogle af folkene fra handelsskibene bliver smidt over bord, mens andre bliver dræbt, og Mads Stis mænd spilder ikke tiden.Some of the people from the merchant ships are thrown overboard, while others are killed, and Mads Stis’s men do not waste any time. Tag din ugelige true crime-historie med i tasken, uanset hvor du holder ferie.Take your weekly true-crime story with you in your bag, wherever you spend your vacation. Find Djævlen i detaljen i DR Lyd.Find Djævlen i detaljen on DR Lyd. Download DR Lyd-appen.Download the DR Lyd app. Her kan du også høre alle DR's radioprogrammer og podcasts.Here you can also listen to all of DR’s radio programs and podcasts.

Hva’ sagde de?

Migrantkaos i Ceuta

Migrantkaos i Ceuta